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	<title>Comments for Second Council House of Virgo</title>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by DoreeneWood</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9106</link>
		<dc:creator>DoreeneWood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mhairimcalpine DoreeneWood  I will definitely try to remember that.  We may think we have it bad in the states, but we are barely there yet, considering what Greece has to put up with. To have your moral fibre tested like that on a daily basis like that sounds brutal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mhairimcalpine DoreeneWood  I will definitely try to remember that.  We may think we have it bad in the states, but we are barely there yet, considering what Greece has to put up with. To have your moral fibre tested like that on a daily basis like that sounds brutal.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9105</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[DoreeneWood 
No, you are right, it doesn&#039;t make it acceptable, but its important to understand the context in which this is happening, rather than just blaming it on &quot;the Greeks&quot; which in its own way is a different form of scapegoating.  
The austerity imposed by the EU and its tacit use of the country as a mass migration camp to buffer it from the effects of climate change and instability - both of which are in no small part contributed to by the foreign and economic policies of EU member states.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DoreeneWood <br />
No, you are right, it doesn&#8217;t make it acceptable, but its important to understand the context in which this is happening, rather than just blaming it on &#8220;the Greeks&#8221; which in its own way is a different form of scapegoating.  <br />
The austerity imposed by the EU and its tacit use of the country as a mass migration camp to buffer it from the effects of climate change and instability &#8211; both of which are in no small part contributed to by the foreign and economic policies of EU member states.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by DoreeneWood</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9104</link>
		<dc:creator>DoreeneWood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mhairimcalpine  As if anyone can forget that. It doesn&#039;t make it right or acceptable.  But I hear what you are saying.  And guest,  don&#039;t insult rednecks. They may be jerks and bullies but there are lines even they won&#039;t cross.  :D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mhairimcalpine  As if anyone can forget that. It doesn&#8217;t make it right or acceptable.  But I hear what you are saying.  And guest,  don&#8217;t insult rednecks. They may be jerks and bullies but there are lines even they won&#8217;t cross.  <img src='http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9101</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Guest You have to remember that this situation hasnt arisen in a vacuum.  Five years of EU imposed austerity, coupled with a mass influx of refugees has created an intolerable situation for Greeks living in Greece.
This scapegoating is born out of the frustration that they feel at the continual erosion of living standards, a crumbling welfare and public services provision and a feeling of national humiliation.  We should all accept responsibility for what is going down in Greece and actively work to change it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Guest You have to remember that this situation hasnt arisen in a vacuum.  Five years of EU imposed austerity, coupled with a mass influx of refugees has created an intolerable situation for Greeks living in Greece.<br />
This scapegoating is born out of the frustration that they feel at the continual erosion of living standards, a crumbling welfare and public services provision and a feeling of national humiliation.  We should all accept responsibility for what is going down in Greece and actively work to change it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by LolaBarosa</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9100</link>
		<dc:creator>LolaBarosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 07:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Roger Crane I&#039;m Greek, living in Athens. all described here have been indeed happening (the prostitutes, the immigrants AND the transgenders have been detained). Also, the lawyer of the transgender people had been thrown in jail the night she went to release them. It was the night, or the night before the Thessaloniki Pride Parade. Everything is true and I&#039;m sorry to say this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Roger Crane I&#8217;m Greek, living in Athens. all described here have been indeed happening (the prostitutes, the immigrants AND the transgenders have been detained). Also, the lawyer of the transgender people had been thrown in jail the night she went to release them. It was the night, or the night before the Thessaloniki Pride Parade. Everything is true and I&#8217;m sorry to say this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9099</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gammi sou. I spit at your heritage and curse your name, Greece. I would never waste a single drakma on you. You are the rednecks of Europe; and considering the history fo you screwing little boys, you should be the last to cast a stone at anyone. I pity you, you over-righteous malakas. I am ashamed to be Greek.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gammi sou. I spit at your heritage and curse your name, Greece. I would never waste a single drakma on you. You are the rednecks of Europe; and considering the history fo you screwing little boys, you should be the last to cast a stone at anyone. I pity you, you over-righteous malakas. I am ashamed to be Greek.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by sammyjane72x</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9070</link>
		<dc:creator>sammyjane72x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2013 13:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do remember you can always take some form of action by signing and sharing this

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Stop_the_Greek_Authorities_detaing_Transgender_people_as_part_of_a_cleansing_effort/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do remember you can always take some form of action by signing and sharing this</p>
<p><a href="https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Stop_the_Greek_Authorities_detaing_Transgender_people_as_part_of_a_cleansing_effort/" rel="nofollow">https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Stop_the_Greek_Authorities_detaing_Transgender_people_as_part_of_a_cleansing_effort/</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9056</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9056</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Roger Crane 
I&#039;m not really sure what you are suggesting here with your comment of &quot;accusation of bias&quot;.
Are you seriously saying that the Transgender Association is making this up, including that their lawyer was thrown in gaol?
Or for other sources try http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/uploads/2013_files/ghm1436_koutra_english.doc, or http://mariayannakaki.gr/index.php/vouli/500-anaitia-fylakisi-dikigorou or http://www.makthes.gr/news/reportage/105338/ orhttp://hellenicaction.blogspot.gr/2013/06/blog-post_5.html.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Roger Crane <br />
I&#8217;m not really sure what you are suggesting here with your comment of &#8220;accusation of bias&#8221;.<br />
Are you seriously saying that the Transgender Association is making this up, including that their lawyer was thrown in gaol?<br />
Or for other sources try <a href="http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/uploads/2013_files/ghm1436_koutra_english.doc" rel="nofollow">http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/uploads/2013_files/ghm1436_koutra_english.doc</a>, or <a href="http://mariayannakaki.gr/index.php/vouli/500-anaitia-fylakisi-dikigorou" rel="nofollow">http://mariayannakaki.gr/index.php/vouli/500-anaitia-fylakisi-dikigorou</a> or <a href="http://www.makthes.gr/news/reportage/105338/" rel="nofollow">http://www.makthes.gr/news/reportage/105338/</a> orhttp://hellenicaction.blogspot.gr/2013/06/blog-post_5.html.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by Roger Crane</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9037</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Crane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9037</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do we have any other sources detailing this phenomenon besides the Transgender Association of Greece? Any source that doesn&#039;t face the accusation of bias?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do we have any other sources detailing this phenomenon besides the Transgender Association of Greece? Any source that doesn&#8217;t face the accusation of bias?</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9021</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9021</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[AntoniosManias 
I have no idea where you are getting your information from but it is simply wrong.
When Operation Zeus started, migrants without papers could be held for up to three months if they applied for asylum, and six months if they did not, but as they were in detention with no access to lawyers, the process of claiming asylum was even more impossible than it was when they were not detained.  This was then extended to 6 months and 18 months respectively.  There are people picked up in the inital round of Operation Zeus who have been interned for nearly a year now.  The operation itself is still continuing.  http://transgendersupportassociation.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/transgender-arrests-in-police-crackdowns-and-unlawful-detention-of-the-defenders-of-their-rights-in-thessaloniki-greece/ is available from the Transgender Association of Greece.
I would encourage people to look carefully at the hellholes that people are being shoved into.  Its not very easy as no journalists are allowed inside and few people ever get out, but http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/05/04/whats-going-on-in-the-internment-camps-of-greece/ does filter out including http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=lP2yT6EjBXo showing the conditions in which they are held.
The Greek Government needs to start respecting international law, and put in place a proper asylum system with the help of the EU who are tactly allowing this situation to develop so that the migrants who are currently stuck in Greece can travel around Europe to find work and settle
The http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/14/a-round-up-of-the-situation-in-greece/.  Don&#039;t think the Dawn will save you - after the come for the migrants, the drug users, the women who work in the sex industry, the transgendered, the disabled, the gay men, the lesbians, the muslims, the jews, the communists and the trade unionists, they will come for you too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AntoniosManias <br />
I have no idea where you are getting your information from but it is simply wrong.<br />
When Operation Zeus started, migrants without papers could be held for up to three months if they applied for asylum, and six months if they did not, but as they were in detention with no access to lawyers, the process of claiming asylum was even more impossible than it was when they were not detained.  This was then extended to 6 months and 18 months respectively.  There are people picked up in the inital round of Operation Zeus who have been interned for nearly a year now.  The operation itself is still continuing.  http://transgendersupportassociation.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/transgender-arrests-in-police-crackdowns-and-unlawful-detention-of-the-defenders-of-their-rights-in-thessaloniki-greece/ is available from the Transgender Association of Greece.<br />
I would encourage people to look carefully at the hellholes that people are being shoved into.  Its not very easy as no journalists are allowed inside and few people ever get out, but <a href="http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/05/04/whats-going-on-in-the-internment-camps-of-greece/" rel="nofollow">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/05/04/whats-going-on-in-the-internment-camps-of-greece/</a> does filter out including <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&#038;v=lP2yT6EjBXo" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&#038;v=lP2yT6EjBXo</a> showing the conditions in which they are held.<br />
The Greek Government needs to start respecting international law, and put in place a proper asylum system with the help of the EU who are tactly allowing this situation to develop so that the migrants who are currently stuck in Greece can travel around Europe to find work and settle<br />
The <a href="http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/14/a-round-up-of-the-situation-in-greece/" rel="nofollow">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/14/a-round-up-of-the-situation-in-greece/</a>.  Don&#8217;t think the Dawn will save you &#8211; after the come for the migrants, the drug users, the women who work in the sex industry, the transgendered, the disabled, the gay men, the lesbians, the muslims, the jews, the communists and the trade unionists, they will come for you too.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gender, Sex and its Intersections by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/09/gender-sex-and-its-intersections/#comment-9020</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5050#comment-9020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NzG 
This isnt a brilliant analogy, but...
Imagine that there is a genetic condition which causes people who have it to have a big green splodge on their skin , the majority of people who have that splodge live in a particular area, which has a bad reputation, and indeed the majority of people who come from that area have the splodge.  People who have that splodge are targetted with violence, while people who come from the area are the butt of jokes in the city.  
Within the area, there is suspicion against anyone who doesn&#039;t have the splodge, they are considered to be not proper residents and indeed there are moves to stop them living there.  People who do have it but live elsewhere are similarly derided.  
There are two things going on here - firstly the difficulties that the splogers face, and secondly the difficulties that the residents of the area face.  These are two seperate things, but it is very likely that the reputation of the area is built on the back of having lots of splogers live there, although the tropes that surround splodgers and the area residents are different.
There are three intersections
 - splodger and area resident
 - area resident and non-splodger
 - splodger and non- area resident.
Theoretically is valid for the splodgers of the area to draw together, but this is used as a tool to exclude splodgers who dont live in the area who face much of the same difficulties, so the splodgers who live outwith the area find that this majority group makes all the decisions and speaks for all splogers ignoring their experiences; similarly the non-splodged residents of the area find that this group speaks for all the area residents.
A more real life analogy might be with parenting.  Most single parents are women, being a single parent is derided, as is being a woman.  It is perfectly valid to set up a (political) women only single parent group,if you are going to look at how women in particular are treated within single parenting compared with men and women who co-parent, but as the vast majority of single parents are women, when it looks at single parenting in the round, it misses out particular issues that single parents who are men face.  So if they run a campaign for a supermarket to provide baby change facilities, it is deemed a sucess when they are provided in the womens toilets and it ignores the fact that men don&#039;t have access to them.
&quot;Who will focus on the intersection of women/female oppression if not the female women who experience it?&quot;
I think a bigger question is who is focussing on female oppression.  It is almost exclusively looked at by female women, the first thing to do is to have an active female challenge and then look at how the particular oppression of females who are women is affected by their gendering.  Until the feminist community deals with the transmisogyny in its midst, it cannot properly confront female oppression because it ignores it by lumping it in with the genderal experience of &quot;woman&quot;.  It is this which is a marginalisation of females, because it ignores the unique oppression that females face, and simply build it into their gender oppression.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NzG <br />
This isnt a brilliant analogy, but&#8230;<br />
Imagine that there is a genetic condition which causes people who have it to have a big green splodge on their skin , the majority of people who have that splodge live in a particular area, which has a bad reputation, and indeed the majority of people who come from that area have the splodge.  People who have that splodge are targetted with violence, while people who come from the area are the butt of jokes in the city.  <br />
Within the area, there is suspicion against anyone who doesn&#8217;t have the splodge, they are considered to be not proper residents and indeed there are moves to stop them living there.  People who do have it but live elsewhere are similarly derided.  <br />
There are two things going on here &#8211; firstly the difficulties that the splogers face, and secondly the difficulties that the residents of the area face.  These are two seperate things, but it is very likely that the reputation of the area is built on the back of having lots of splogers live there, although the tropes that surround splodgers and the area residents are different.<br />
There are three intersections<br />
 - splodger and area resident<br />
 - area resident and non-splodger<br />
 - splodger and non- area resident.<br />
Theoretically is valid for the splodgers of the area to draw together, but this is used as a tool to exclude splodgers who dont live in the area who face much of the same difficulties, so the splodgers who live outwith the area find that this majority group makes all the decisions and speaks for all splogers ignoring their experiences; similarly the non-splodged residents of the area find that this group speaks for all the area residents.<br />
A more real life analogy might be with parenting.  Most single parents are women, being a single parent is derided, as is being a woman.  It is perfectly valid to set up a (political) women only single parent group,if you are going to look at how women in particular are treated within single parenting compared with men and women who co-parent, but as the vast majority of single parents are women, when it looks at single parenting in the round, it misses out particular issues that single parents who are men face.  So if they run a campaign for a supermarket to provide baby change facilities, it is deemed a sucess when they are provided in the womens toilets and it ignores the fact that men don&#8217;t have access to them.<br />
&#8220;Who will focus on the intersection of women/female oppression if not the female women who experience it?&#8221;<br />
I think a bigger question is who is focussing on female oppression.  It is almost exclusively looked at by female women, the first thing to do is to have an active female challenge and then look at how the particular oppression of females who are women is affected by their gendering.  Until the feminist community deals with the transmisogyny in its midst, it cannot properly confront female oppression because it ignores it by lumping it in with the genderal experience of &#8220;woman&#8221;.  It is this which is a marginalisation of females, because it ignores the unique oppression that females face, and simply build it into their gender oppression.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by AntoniosManias</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9019</link>
		<dc:creator>AntoniosManias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9019</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What no trains and Auschwitz? Operation Zeus (which was a failure btw) did not target transgenders. It targeted illegal immigrants. They amount to 2,000,000+ million people in a country with a population of 10,500,000.They were rounded taken to a police station. Given a paper that said that you have to leave within 1 month and set loose. 

We unfortunately do not have &quot;hell-hole&quot; camps as this lady, with clearly no agenda, would like to make people, who might not bother to look into the matter closely, believe. 
If we wanted to round up all illegal immigrants in Greece we would need a detention camp the size of half of Crete or the entire emirate of Dubai. 
No it was a smoke screen to try and turn people away from an ever popular Golden Dawn.
Unfortunately for them we all know that this is not the way to make these people leave. 
If Greece is to stop being the dumping ground of Illegals in Europe there can only be 2 ways to do it. 
Allow the army to protect the borders &amp; impose heavy penalties on the illegals.
Give them one month to leave or else 20yrs jail sentence. Jail sentence that can be reduced to 10 with labor. 
At the end of the ten years each illegal gets the equivalent of 8000 + interest euro worth of stocks or bonds in their home country to which they will be forced to relocate to. 
Win win situation for both the Greek people who are suffering (90% of all heinous crimes - murder- rape- are all from convicted illegal immigrants) and who will get massive cheap labor for 10yrs and for the illegals who will leave after 10 years with an amount that could help them make a fresh start in their home country. 
Not to mention that this law would act as a deterrent for the next batch who decide to break our laws and enter our borders illegally.  
We could always round them up and throw them in the sea, something expected by Greek authorities as described in this science fiction article. But .... We like to swim in in plus we have gotten enough bad press for this decade.
Note: I have no clue of what she is talking about regarding transgenders.  Nobody bothers with gay people in Greece. We knew what gay people were at a time where most of Europe had inhabitants who used to live in caves in swing off trees. I would presume we are pretty used to the concept without the need for theatrics described in this article. I have a feeling that she wrote transgenders cause if she wrote illegals she wouldnt get much in the way of sympathy.
Note2: Transgenders/prostitutes described in operation Zeus were also illegal immigrants. Unlike our own transgenders and prostitutes who are registered and undergo full medicals quite often for both their sake and that of their clients (as is expected in a nation that respects itself and its citizens) the illegals are unregistered and as such no such disease control exists to limit exposure to the populace of std&#039;s etc. It is only natural that they would be rounded up, tested and registered as it is the right thing to do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What no trains and Auschwitz? Operation Zeus (which was a failure btw) did not target transgenders. It targeted illegal immigrants. They amount to 2,000,000+ million people in a country with a population of 10,500,000.They were rounded taken to a police station. Given a paper that said that you have to leave within 1 month and set loose. </p>
<p>We unfortunately do not have &#8220;hell-hole&#8221; camps as this lady, with clearly no agenda, would like to make people, who might not bother to look into the matter closely, believe. <br />
If we wanted to round up all illegal immigrants in Greece we would need a detention camp the size of half of Crete or the entire emirate of Dubai. <br />
No it was a smoke screen to try and turn people away from an ever popular Golden Dawn.<br />
Unfortunately for them we all know that this is not the way to make these people leave. <br />
If Greece is to stop being the dumping ground of Illegals in Europe there can only be 2 ways to do it. <br />
Allow the army to protect the borders &amp; impose heavy penalties on the illegals.<br />
Give them one month to leave or else 20yrs jail sentence. Jail sentence that can be reduced to 10 with labor. <br />
At the end of the ten years each illegal gets the equivalent of 8000 + interest euro worth of stocks or bonds in their home country to which they will be forced to relocate to. <br />
Win win situation for both the Greek people who are suffering (90% of all heinous crimes &#8211; murder- rape- are all from convicted illegal immigrants) and who will get massive cheap labor for 10yrs and for the illegals who will leave after 10 years with an amount that could help them make a fresh start in their home country. <br />
Not to mention that this law would act as a deterrent for the next batch who decide to break our laws and enter our borders illegally.  <br />
We could always round them up and throw them in the sea, something expected by Greek authorities as described in this science fiction article. But &#8230;. We like to swim in in plus we have gotten enough bad press for this decade.<br />
Note: I have no clue of what she is talking about regarding transgenders.  Nobody bothers with gay people in Greece. We knew what gay people were at a time where most of Europe had inhabitants who used to live in caves in swing off trees. I would presume we are pretty used to the concept without the need for theatrics described in this article. I have a feeling that she wrote transgenders cause if she wrote illegals she wouldnt get much in the way of sympathy.<br />
Note2: Transgenders/prostitutes described in operation Zeus were also illegal immigrants. Unlike our own transgenders and prostitutes who are registered and undergo full medicals quite often for both their sake and that of their clients (as is expected in a nation that respects itself and its citizens) the illegals are unregistered and as such no such disease control exists to limit exposure to the populace of std&#8217;s etc. It is only natural that they would be rounded up, tested and registered as it is the right thing to do.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by eksagriwmenos</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9017</link>
		<dc:creator>eksagriwmenos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 21:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[as someone born and bread in greece and still living here i just want to remind that homophobia and transphobia with the targeting of lgbt people by the state is not an immediate outcome of the economic crisis, it was kind of always there, i&#039;ll just give one example: in 2003-one year before the olympics, a gay bar named &quot;Spices&quot; in Athens was raided by police for suspected drug dealing, the names of people arrested-some of them public figures- were reproduced by the media leading to the suicide of one man during his detention. This event sparked a &quot;rebirth&quot; of the lgbt movement here and led to to organisation of the first athens pride 2 years later. What i want to point out is that homophobia was even worse in the 90s or early 00&#039;s for instance  the crisis just gave the opportunity to the right wing part of greek society to be more honest about its identity and of course the nazi party gaining power is a new thing but deep down it was always there, just waiting for an opportunity to &quot;come out&quot;. And this isn&#039;t nazi germany, at least not yet, its important not to relativise, it&#039;s a fascist government supported by millions of fascist voters and we should take the needed action without letting despair gain control.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as someone born and bread in greece and still living here i just want to remind that homophobia and transphobia with the targeting of lgbt people by the state is not an immediate outcome of the economic crisis, it was kind of always there, i&#8217;ll just give one example: in 2003-one year before the olympics, a gay bar named &#8220;Spices&#8221; in Athens was raided by police for suspected drug dealing, the names of people arrested-some of them public figures- were reproduced by the media leading to the suicide of one man during his detention. This event sparked a &#8220;rebirth&#8221; of the lgbt movement here and led to to organisation of the first athens pride 2 years later. What i want to point out is that homophobia was even worse in the 90s or early 00&#8242;s for instance  the crisis just gave the opportunity to the right wing part of greek society to be more honest about its identity and of course the nazi party gaining power is a new thing but deep down it was always there, just waiting for an opportunity to &#8220;come out&#8221;. And this isn&#8217;t nazi germany, at least not yet, its important not to relativise, it&#8217;s a fascist government supported by millions of fascist voters and we should take the needed action without letting despair gain control.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9008</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NiennaChatwin Athens is an amazing place, you literally trip over ancient classical remnants as you walk around the city.  The situation in Greece wont last for ever, it cant - the tension is just too great.  
The whole of C20th Greek history is one of resistance to dictatorship and totalitarianism, from the Mexatia regime in the 30s, the Nazi occupation in the 40s and the Junta in the 60s/70s.   Greek people managed to resist and eventually overcome all of them and they can fight off the threat of the Golden Dawn and the Troika, but they do need international support to do so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NiennaChatwin Athens is an amazing place, you literally trip over ancient classical remnants as you walk around the city.  The situation in Greece wont last for ever, it cant &#8211; the tension is just too great.  <br />
The whole of C20th Greek history is one of resistance to dictatorship and totalitarianism, from the Mexatia regime in the 30s, the Nazi occupation in the 40s and the Junta in the 60s/70s.   Greek people managed to resist and eventually overcome all of them and they can fight off the threat of the Golden Dawn and the Troika, but they do need international support to do so.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by NiennaChatwin</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9007</link>
		<dc:creator>NiennaChatwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have always had an interest in Ancient Greek history and mythology and it has always been a dream of mine to one day visit Greece and see the historic sites that I have studied and dreamt about since i was a child.  I fear now that I will never get to do so because I am transgendered.  Whatever else the Golden Dawn has done, on a very personal level they have destroyed a dream that i have had since childhood.  But that is but a small thing compared to what they are doing to the reputation of Greece around the world, and what they are doing to Greek people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have always had an interest in Ancient Greek history and mythology and it has always been a dream of mine to one day visit Greece and see the historic sites that I have studied and dreamt about since i was a child.  I fear now that I will never get to do so because I am transgendered.  Whatever else the Golden Dawn has done, on a very personal level they have destroyed a dream that i have had since childhood.  But that is but a small thing compared to what they are doing to the reputation of Greece around the world, and what they are doing to Greek people.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by NiennaChatwin</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9006</link>
		<dc:creator>NiennaChatwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Charalampos Xanthopoulos  If good Greek people stand up and fight and make their voices heard, then it is possible that this maybe a turning point for Greece and the Greek government may at last be forced to grant all Greek citizens equal rights no matter their religion, ethnicity, sexuality or gender.  Then, once again the Greek people will be able to hold up their heads with pride and say that they have shown the world that they are setting an example for the rest of the world in fighting fascism and in fighting for democracy and for human rights.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Charalampos Xanthopoulos  If good Greek people stand up and fight and make their voices heard, then it is possible that this maybe a turning point for Greece and the Greek government may at last be forced to grant all Greek citizens equal rights no matter their religion, ethnicity, sexuality or gender.  Then, once again the Greek people will be able to hold up their heads with pride and say that they have shown the world that they are setting an example for the rest of the world in fighting fascism and in fighting for democracy and for human rights.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9005</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Charalampos Xanthopoulos 
Thanks for your thoughts.
Firstly I entirely agree that the Golden Dawn are serving the system.  I thnk they are far deeper tied in with the establishment than anyone cares to acknowledge, and the question of where they get their substantial funding from has never been entirely answered.
On the anti-racism bill.  Racism is primarily a structural phenomenon, not just an individual interaction, racism needs tackled at the root.  Hate speech isn&#039;t free speech - it is the structural silencing by privilaged groups by those without those privilages.  An anti-racism bill in Greece is essential as a first step towards a commitment to stamping out the racism which is increasingly infesting Greek society.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Charalampos Xanthopoulos <br />
Thanks for your thoughts.<br />
Firstly I entirely agree that the Golden Dawn are serving the system.  I thnk they are far deeper tied in with the establishment than anyone cares to acknowledge, and the question of where they get their substantial funding from has never been entirely answered.<br />
On the anti-racism bill.  Racism is primarily a structural phenomenon, not just an individual interaction, racism needs tackled at the root.  Hate speech isn&#8217;t free speech &#8211; it is the structural silencing by privilaged groups by those without those privilages.  An anti-racism bill in Greece is essential as a first step towards a commitment to stamping out the racism which is increasingly infesting Greek society.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9004</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Charalampos Xanthopoulos There&#039;s a difference between being able to call someone a derogatory name or say that a gay person is evil, &amp; locking transgender people in prison camps just for being transgender. Saying hurtful things about people doesn&#039;t physically harm them, even if it does hurt their psyche, but attacking them, putting them in camps, &amp; keeping them from having jobs, houses, &amp; children does. Everyone should be treated fairly &amp; given as much of an equal opportunity as possible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Charalampos Xanthopoulos There&#8217;s a difference between being able to call someone a derogatory name or say that a gay person is evil, &amp; locking transgender people in prison camps just for being transgender. Saying hurtful things about people doesn&#8217;t physically harm them, even if it does hurt their psyche, but attacking them, putting them in camps, &amp; keeping them from having jobs, houses, &amp; children does. Everyone should be treated fairly &amp; given as much of an equal opportunity as possible.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by NiennaChatwin</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9003</link>
		<dc:creator>NiennaChatwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mhairimcalpine NiennaChatwin   I agree with you Mhairi.  But more needs to be done than assigning the blame.  Constructive Action needs to be taken by the European union to stop the cradle of democracy from falling into chaos and descending into a fascist hellhole.  Action is what is needed, not words.   Those that caused the problem need to be held to account and a plan that does not involve victimising the greek people needs to be made.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mhairimcalpine NiennaChatwin   I agree with you Mhairi.  But more needs to be done than assigning the blame.  Constructive Action needs to be taken by the European union to stop the cradle of democracy from falling into chaos and descending into a fascist hellhole.  Action is what is needed, not words.   Those that caused the problem need to be held to account and a plan that does not involve victimising the greek people needs to be made.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by Charalampos Xanthopoulos</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9002</link>
		<dc:creator>Charalampos Xanthopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 18:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello. I as a Greek citizen agree to certain parts of this article and acknowledge them. I am troubled though about the timing of certain things coming to light. In Greece the government is trying to pass a legislation an anti-racism bill. I am afraid that certain events happened to strengthen that and convince citizens we should support it. I, myself do not wish for it to pass. It focuses mainly not to gender but towards ethnicities, towards the banning of fascism, it will mark certain things as racism. There is a hidden danger though. If we ban someone from lets say being and having the freedom to express racism, in a non violent manner of course. Like lets say call someone a faggot, or nigger, then we offer a stepping stone to be able to mark things as racism. Maybe tomorrow, they will decide being a communist is bad, being black or transgender is bad, you and I calling someone a fascist is racism. I am afraid we are moving down a dangerous path, of simply creating the base of being able to stop freedom of speech depending on occasion. As for the mentioning of Golden Dawn..... I think they are simply serving the system, they create incidents the system can use to pass what they want. Personally, I would prefer a simply law of all are equal to the eyes of the law, of course the law should be fair for that to work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello. I as a Greek citizen agree to certain parts of this article and acknowledge them. I am troubled though about the timing of certain things coming to light. In Greece the government is trying to pass a legislation an anti-racism bill. I am afraid that certain events happened to strengthen that and convince citizens we should support it. I, myself do not wish for it to pass. It focuses mainly not to gender but towards ethnicities, towards the banning of fascism, it will mark certain things as racism. There is a hidden danger though. If we ban someone from lets say being and having the freedom to express racism, in a non violent manner of course. Like lets say call someone a faggot, or nigger, then we offer a stepping stone to be able to mark things as racism. Maybe tomorrow, they will decide being a communist is bad, being black or transgender is bad, you and I calling someone a fascist is racism. I am afraid we are moving down a dangerous path, of simply creating the base of being able to stop freedom of speech depending on occasion. As for the mentioning of Golden Dawn&#8230;.. I think they are simply serving the system, they create incidents the system can use to pass what they want. Personally, I would prefer a simply law of all are equal to the eyes of the law, of course the law should be fair for that to work.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9001</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a person of Greek heritage, this is a troubling revelation. The similarities in &quot;modern&quot; Greece now are the echos of the Nazis of the 30s and the occupation of Greece during that troubling time. I am actually ashamed to be half Greek. I will not be visiting my father&#039;s homeland in this lifetime. As an American, I can say I am blessed to be here and not there. And to all my sisters there, get out while you can. Fools who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. And the malakas running Greece now won&#039;t be happy until they have destroyed everything the &quot;Cradle of Civilization&quot; once stood for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a person of Greek heritage, this is a troubling revelation. The similarities in &#8220;modern&#8221; Greece now are the echos of the Nazis of the 30s and the occupation of Greece during that troubling time. I am actually ashamed to be half Greek. I will not be visiting my father&#8217;s homeland in this lifetime. As an American, I can say I am blessed to be here and not there. And to all my sisters there, get out while you can. Fools who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. And the malakas running Greece now won&#8217;t be happy until they have destroyed everything the &#8220;Cradle of Civilization&#8221; once stood for.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-9000</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-9000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NiennaChatwin 
 Everyone is being scapegoated in Greece at the moment: 
 - the old who ran up all the debt
 - the young who are too lazy to work
 - the women who wanted nice clothes which is the reason for all the debt
 - the men who bought fancy cars and that is the reason for all the debt
 - the public sector workers who have it cushy
 - the private sector workers who dont have a social concience
 Anyone and everyone can be scapegoated which is why everyone needs to stand together to put the blame firmly where it belongs, with the Troika, the EU, the Greek Government, the multinationals and the technocrats]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NiennaChatwin <br />
 Everyone is being scapegoated in Greece at the moment:<br />
 - the old who ran up all the debt<br />
 - the young who are too lazy to work<br />
 - the women who wanted nice clothes which is the reason for all the debt<br />
 - the men who bought fancy cars and that is the reason for all the debt<br />
 - the public sector workers who have it cushy<br />
 - the private sector workers who dont have a social concience<br />
 Anyone and everyone can be scapegoated which is why everyone needs to stand together to put the blame firmly where it belongs, with the Troika, the EU, the Greek Government, the multinationals and the technocrats</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by NiennaChatwin</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-8999</link>
		<dc:creator>NiennaChatwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-8999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mhairimcalpine NiennaChatwin   i managed to get back part of it


I wish I could say that this surprised me but it really doesn&#039;t.  a country with massive debts being taken over by fascists, opening internment (concentration) camps and   socially cleansing &quot;undesirable&quot; members of the community.  This has happened in europe before.  the similarities with    germany in the 1930s are obvious.   We all know from history what is probably going to happen next and idiots like some of the people who have commented here will sit around defending the fascists right to cleanse their country on the internet  whilst people disappear and die.  Of course they are rounding up transgendered people, migrants, sex workers, etc, just like the Germans did.  Who is next?  moslems?  catholics?   Jews again?    lessons need to be learned from history.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mhairimcalpine NiennaChatwin   i managed to get back part of it</p>
<p>I wish I could say that this surprised me but it really doesn&#8217;t.  a country with massive debts being taken over by fascists, opening internment (concentration) camps and   socially cleansing &#8220;undesirable&#8221; members of the community.  This has happened in europe before.  the similarities with    germany in the 1930s are obvious.   We all know from history what is probably going to happen next and idiots like some of the people who have commented here will sit around defending the fascists right to cleanse their country on the internet  whilst people disappear and die.  Of course they are rounding up transgendered people, migrants, sex workers, etc, just like the Germans did.  Who is next?  moslems?  catholics?   Jews again?    lessons need to be learned from history.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by NiennaChatwin</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-8998</link>
		<dc:creator>NiennaChatwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-8998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mhairimcalpine NiennaChatwin thanks for looking]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mhairimcalpine NiennaChatwin thanks for looking</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8230;and then they came for the trans* people. by mhairimcalpine</title>
		<link>http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/05/and-then-they-came-for-the-trans-people/#comment-8997</link>
		<dc:creator>mhairimcalpine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/?p=5760#comment-8997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NiennaChatwin Nope - sorry, its disappeared into the cyberether]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NiennaChatwin Nope &#8211; sorry, its disappeared into the cyberether</p>
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